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by sipedo from Brooksville, Florida

Last Post 6 days, 10 hours Ago


The Florida Outpouring in Lakeland
Jun 19, 2008 | 2:06 PM
Category: Faith
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Ignited Church in Lakeland, pastored by Stephen Strader invited Todd Bentley for some services a couple months ago.  Bentley is from Canada, and when you look at this guy, you might be scared if you ran into him on the street.  People are coming from all over Florida and the world to wherever this group can find a place to meet.  The church building is too small to handle the crowds, so they have occupied local facilities that can accommodate the crowds.  Interesting note, Ignited Church was once Carpenter's Home in Lakeland  and the building was sold to Without Walls, and now that building is back up for sale.  Maybe they should buy it back, it seats around 10 thousand.  Just a thought.

Anyway, back on track.

People are coming for healing.  I believe some are receiving healing, but many more are not.  I was in the local Kangaroo store yesterday wearing my I Love Jesus hat, and the clerk asked me if I had been to Lakeland yet.  I have not.  She proceeded to tell me that she and her husband took their granddaughter there for prayer the night before.  The prayer team prayed for her, the growth around her neck associated with her Thyroid condition, according to them decreased in size.

I have watched pieces of this "outpouring" on line, where people who claim to have faith that they will be healed come up to Todd and exclaim that they have already quit taking their medications.  I don't know if that is faith, or if it is stupidity.  I recall going to see Oral Roberts as a child for a healing crusade in the Detroit Area.  People came forward for the prayer of healing.  Oral Roberts was very clear and admonished people to keep taking their medications and check with their physicians.  Oral Roberts has wacked out quite a bit over the years, but that advice stuck with me, and every "healing" ministry needs to take that advice.

I am skeptical about such things citing the Revival at Brownsville near Pensacola where 20/20 did stories on the woman who jerked around in the choir and they said that was the Holy Spirit.  Then there is what has been called the Toronto Blessing where people laughed uncontrollably and some even barked like dogs, and people said that was God.

Then the appeals for money are a definite turnoff.  I've always been taught that if you are doing God's work, then God will provide.  I feel that those who spend more than a moment on an appeal for financial support are missing the mark.  Doing God's Work = God Provides.  If you have to beg for money to keep going, I assert that you are not doing God's work.

As I have watched online on GODTV parts of the "Florida Outpouring" as it is being billed, I can't help but wonder if this really a move of God?  As I see Todd Bentley with swift action direct his hands, thrusting them towards peoples midsections, or wherever they are ailing, and watching them fall down?  They call the falling down part being "slain in the spirit".
If I'm correct, and I think I am, the only ones in the Bible to be slain by the Spirit were Ananias and Saphira, and they were struck dead (slain) for lying to the Apostles.  I fail to see the significance of the falling down.  I believe it is usually intentional. I know there are those who will say that when the power of God is present, it is so overwhelming that all one can do is fall down in the presence of a Holy God.

I grew up in a pentecostal church, in fact the same denomination as Ignited Church.  I left that denomination because of the over emphasis on the non-essentials, like speaking in tongues.  Like I said, I believe God heals, I just don't think he makes a spectacle of it.

Is it an outpouring of God's healing power?  Or is it just a show?

I believe there are lots of people who are sincere about it, but my gut feeling says, watch out!  God is not mocked.

I plan on attending one of these nights.  I plan to simply be a spectator.  Maybe I'll be proved wrong.  Then again....
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AthenaZeusVito read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 3:16 PM

If you go, please write a blog about it. If it brings more people to the Lord, how bad can it be?
jfore read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 3:36 PM

Sip, a healthy skepticism is in order here. With all the millions and millions of claimed healings all over the world you think by now that someone would have been able produced evidence of at least one healing of an organic ailment that could be medically verified, if for no other reason than to shut up the critics. But so far they have not been able to produce even one single verifiable case. If these “faith healers” were the real thing then why don’t you ever see them in the hospitals or at disaster sites healing people? What better places to go to find people who are in need of healing. I was in the BIRC unit at Sand Lake Hospital for three months and no faith healer ever showed up to heal me. Why do they never seem to venture out of their church buildings, their television studios, or their tents? Why does what they do only seem to work under controlled conditions and only seems to work on things that are not verifiable? Why have you never seen a blind person see at one of their services? Why have you never seen a broken arm made whole again? Why have you never seen a crippled child walk? I’ll tell you why. Because they’re all phonies. I could go on for hours. In fact, I’ve taught many many lessons on this very subject. But let me suggest a couple of books. “Charismatic Chaos” by John MacArthur and “Counterfeit Revival” by Hank Hanegraaff. Strader got involved in a movement known as “The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit” a few years ago and it split Carpenter’s Church because most of the congregation saw it for what it is, a scam. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying t
jfore read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 3:37 PM

I’m not saying that God can’t heal people today because He does. But He does it in His own good time and in His own way and never through a human agent.
AthenaZeusVito read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 4:08 PM

Never through a human agent?? I'm sorry, but I have evidence to the contrary. I have seen someone's leg grow in front of my eyes when he was being prayed over for his back injuries.

I also witnessed a man with Lou Gehrig's Disease walk up and down a flight of stairs with no trouble after being prayed for.

Yes, God heals on His terms. He does, however not always, use human agents. Remember, he heals on HIS terms and when HE sees fit. Not on our terms or when we see fit.
sipedo read my blog view my photos
Jun 19, 2008 | 5:08 PM

jfore, the only response I can think of, is found in scripute "if there is anybody sick among you, let them call upon the elders of the church . . . and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick" (I know I didn't quote it exactly, but you get the idea) which one might say, you have to go to them for the prayer. BUT - what's t stop them from coming to say a hospital if called upon?

But you are right. You pose an excellent question.

And yes, it is always on God's terms, not any humans's.
jfore read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 11:55 PM

Sip, all James is saying is IF YOU'RE SICK, GO TO THE ELDERS AND HAVE THEM PRAY FOR YOU. He's not telling people to go to the elders so that the elders can heal them. We are all called on to pray for the sick. We don't need a faith healer to do that. Since tbe Bible says that the prayers of a righteous man is effective, what better place to go for intercessory prayer than to the people who are suppose to be the most righteous, the elders of the church. That's all James is telling us to do. In any case, we are to pray to God and then let God do whatever He wants to do. But the people you are talking about basically say that if you pray with enough faith then God MUST do what YOU WANT. They say that, if you have enough faith God wants you to always be healthy, wealthy and wise. I guess He forgot me. Besides. who wouldn't come to Jesus on those terms. That's why their churches get so big. But they're coming for the wrong reasons. If all you want to do is draw a crowd you can start a fight and do that. But that's not what the Bible says the Gospel is all about. You also don't need to read very far in the New Testament to see that that idea isn't true. Look at Paul's life. They also claim that God has given certain people the power to heal whoever they touch as long as the sick person has enough faith. That doesn't let God be God. It also allows the faith healer to fail by blaming the sick person's lack of faith when they aren't healed. Plus, as I said earlier, if that were tue, then why is there no evidence to back it up. NOT ONE CASE. If what these people say is true then God

jfore read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 11:56 PM

If what these people say is true then God is no longer sovereign because, if we have the right amount of faith and say the right words, then He must do whatever WE WANT. If you look at the healings that are being clsimed today you'll see that they bear no resemblance to the healings that were performed by Jesus and the Apostles. Trust me, God is omniscient. He knows what He is going to do a long time before we decide to offer our prayer. He doesn't need a faith healer to act as the go between. Because God is sovereign and omniscient no prayer has ever changed God's mind. We pray simply to acknowledge the fact that we know that God is our provider. Sometimes God will wait for us to demonstrate our faith in Him by praying before He will act. But He decided to do that long before we even uttered our first word. But the people you're talking about have turned God into a cosmic vending machine and faith is the gun pointed at God's head that says, I have the faith, so you must do what I want. Again, in the interest of time I am making this a lot simpler than it is. I hope I haven't over simplified it.

Athens, I've seen legs grow too. A doctor friend of mine once told me that even doctors don't really know how to measure leg length accurately because it is always changing. Also, no one is perfectly symetrical. Everyone has one leg slightly shorter than the other. But show me one person wearing a built up shoe that no longer needs it after a faith healer lengthened his leg. You won't find any. Growing leg length is a favorite trick used by faith healers because it's so easy to f
jfore read my blog
Jun 19, 2008 | 11:58 PM

Growing leg length is a favorite trick used by faith healers because it's so easy to fake. I can have someone pull on my heel and my leg will seem to grow longer, especially if they pull my shoe off a little to enhance the illusion. But, as soon as I stand up we're back to square one again. Also, since leg length is so hard to measure accurately, there is no medical documentation that it has actually happened because it hasn't happened. Benny Hinn has a room backstage where the people who are going to be healed that day are coached in how to act on stage when they receive their "healing". If it was real they wouldn't need to be coached. But show me one person who showed up in a wheelchair at one of Hinn's meetings that didn't leave in that same wheelchair. I'd also ask you to wait a few days and talk to the guy who walked the stairs and see if he was actually healed. I guarantee he wasn't. Don't underestimate the power of mind over matter where symptom relief is concerned. Besides, Jesus never partially healed anyone. All of His healings were total, instantaneous and permanent There are tons of cases every year where people are told by some faith healer that they have been healed and they stop talking their meds and they DIE.
AthenaZeusVito read my blog
Jun 20, 2008 | 8:23 AM

The man whose leg grew is my husband. He has had no pain since being prayed over. You may doubt, but you were not there and did not see.

It does not take much faith to notice the sudden absence of pain.
Truthguys read my blog view my photos
Jun 21, 2008 | 4:55 AM

Is that the church whose pastor is loaded with tatoos?
jfore read my blog
Jun 21, 2008 | 12:18 PM

Athena: There is no doubt in my mind that what you're saying is true. You're not the first one who has said something like this to me. But! There are also many ways to explain it away that has nothing at all to do with the faith healer who "prayed over him." In any case, I doubt that your husband's leg physically grew longer. You probably fell for the illusion. But that doesn't mean that the pain wasn't real and that it didn't stop. But, ask yourself this question. Was your husband's pain the result of a documented organic disorder or simply a functional disorder? Let me explain. A functional disorder is where a perfectly normal body part doesn't function properly. In other words, "my arm hurts" or "my back hurts" but there is nothing physically wrong that would explain the pain. An organic disorder is "my arm hurts because it's broken." In that case there is an obvious underlying physical cause for the pain. That's my point. There is no documented case of an organic disorder ever being healed by a faith healer. So, if what they do is real, then why is their power to heal always limited to mysterious ailments that can't be documented. Some faith healers even say that they've raised people from the dead. Oral Roberts did. Another faith healer said that hundreds of people were being raised from the dead every year. So give me some names. When pressed, Roberts finally admitted that the person he said he raised from the dead was never really declared dead in the first place. He had simply said a prayer for them and they moved. If what they do is real then why are modern day fai
jfore read my blog
Jun 21, 2008 | 12:20 PM

If what they do is real then why are modern day faith healers so careful to avoid people with obvious physical disorders? Ever see a failth healer in a hospital ward or at the scene of a disaster healing people? Their power only seems to work under very controlled conditions and never outside of their meeting halls. One obviously crippled man managed to get to the stage in one of Benny Hinn's meetings and asked Hinn to heal him. A very embarrassed Hinn mumbled a prayer for the man and then the man was promptly ushered out of the building by Hinn's" security goons." You see, he had never been "coached" as to the proper way to receive his healing. Plus, the cause of his ailment was so obvious that Hinn didn't want everyone in the building to see that he had no power at all to heal the man. Why do they do those things? Because they know they can't heal people and they don't want to put their lack of power on display, that's why. Jesus and the Apostles didn't have that limitation and these people claim to be doing what Jesus and the Apostles did. There are tons of cases where people will claim to have been relieved of pain or other symptoms where there is no obvious physical cause. You have to take their word for it that it hurt in the first place and that it really did stop hurting. There is no way to prove it one way or the other. Remember, even psychosomatic symptoms are real. Why they appear and why they go away is anybody's guess. Don't underestimate the power of suggestion, either. Doctors have found that they get better results in pain relief when they give you a pill an
jfore read my blog
Jun 21, 2008 | 12:21 PM

Doctors have found that they get better results in pain relief when they give you a pill and tell you it will relieve your pain than they do by simply giving you the pill without comment. I've also had people tell me that they had been healed of some mysterious pain by a faith healer but when pressed for details they admitted that they really still hurt every now and then but ignored the pain. They were afraid to deny the healing because they were afraid that God might take it away from them and they'd hurt all the time. That's what the faith healer told them would happen. That's another ploy faith healers use to cover up their failures. But none of the healings performed by Jesus or the Apostles was gradual, temporary, or partial. I've also seen cases were a person claimed to be healed of a organic disorder, like cancer, but when pressed for details you find out that they had never really been diagnosed with cancer in the first place -- they just assumed that they had cancer -- or they had extensive medical treatment. But instead of crediting medical science for the cure they gave all the credit to the faith healer. Most so called "faith healings" are either for ailments that we really can't document or for things that have an alternative explanation. Does God heal today? YES!!!! All healing comes from God. Should we pray for the sick? YES!!!! I have stopped during many of my meetings and asked my students to lay their hands on someone in the class and pray for their healing. But I have never never never claimed any power to heal. We have witnessed some pretty amazing thin
jfore read my blog
Jun 21, 2008 | 12:22 PM

We have witnessed some pretty amazing things as a result. Interccessory prayer is a wonderful thing. Does God use human agents like faith healers to heal people today? NO!!!! The healings through human agents that occurred in the Bible served a very specific purpose. That purpose has been fulfilled and faith healing stopped even before all the Apostles died. Time won't allow me to elucidate further. God heals in His own good time, in His own good way, but He no longer does it through a human agent like a faith healer. In some cases God chooses not to heal at all. Miraculous healing are real. I know they're true because I have experienced one myself. But no faith healer was involved. It was between me and the Lord. But these modern day faith healers are all phonies. We should all pray for the sick. But if you hear someone say that THEY have been anointed by God with the power to heal, run away as fast as you can because you're dealing with a false teacher. Jesus said that Satan's agents can appear as angels of light and will perform many signs and wonders in an effort to deceive God's people. Like I told sip. A little healthy skepticism is in order here.
sipedo read my blog view my photos
Jun 21, 2008 | 2:54 PM

jfore, thanks for the clarification on James, I had forgotten off hand what the address was

I was trying to lazily answer the question about why the "faith healers" weren't in the hospitals

Truthguys, the pastor isn't the one with the tattoos, it's the faith healer that is

Stephen Strader is the pastor, and he is the son of Karl Strader, who was the pastor of Carpenters Home in Lakeland, which is now a building owned by Without Walls, but is for sale.
didaskalos read my blog
Jun 21, 2008 | 9:27 PM

Great comments and analysis!

I met one man, a missionary that had a medically verifiable (before/after x-rays separated by one day) organic healing of a broken leg and another man, who's father was a pastor, who had a medically verifable (by e-ray) organic healing of a inoperable facial tumor ... neither involved faith healers. In both cases, the doctors were shock.

I attended a "holy laughter" (e.g. Toranto Blessing) meeting for French-speakers. The Canadian who preached was really funny ... could have been a stand up comedian. The one Bible verse that he did make reference to was misquoted (he said the disciples a pentecoste in Acts 2 were "filled with new wine"). The guy worked the crowd. The place was "seeded" with special laughers (different from the laughter caused by the preacher's jokes). The guy went waaaaay long and then "cut" the crowd ... closing the meeting (after midnight) then asking those who wanted the blessing of "new wine" to stay for the holy laughter experience. I stayed and watched. When I asked a person who I knew that went up there what they had experienced, they got reeeal defensive. I'm very cautious and leary of preacher theatrics.
jfore read my blog
Jun 22, 2008 | 10:37 AM

I have heard of several churches that practice what they call "holy laughter." Someone needs to tell those people that He is the HOLY SPIRIT and not the HAPPY SPIRIT. You come to God and then spend the rest of your life laughing hysterically, NOT!!!
didaskalos read my blog
Jun 23, 2008 | 12:02 PM

BTW, if there were any doubts ... I am NOT in the holy laughter camp. Joy, as fruit of the Spirit, yes ... but the others stuff, no.
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 2:33 PM

jfore,Where do I begin?
You seem to have intelectualized the Power of God right out of the word,and rendered the Word to none effect.The Bible means what it say's.
James 5:14-"Is any sick among you?let him call for th elders of the church and let them pray over him,anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up;"
Never take the Word out of context and make it say whatever you want it to say.
AthenaZeusVito read my blog
Jun 23, 2008 | 2:49 PM

jfore, do you not believe in the spiritual gifts Paul discusses? The gift of healing (and the other spiritual gifts) is very real and alive today.
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 2:54 PM

"a healthy skepticism is in order here. With all the millions and millions of claimed healings all over the world you think by now that someone would have been able produced evidence"-Jfore,The evidence is there,you just need to know where to look.
Do you actually expect the health care profesionals to explain away the Power of God?
They deal in what they can see,taste and smell in the natural,It's hard for them to understand the un-seen realm.They just write it off as un-explained,or"we just just don't know".Medical school cannot explain away the Power of God,Spiritual matters are spiritually descerned.
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 3:04 PM

I believe we as Christians are vessels and conduits of the power and glory of God.
"Christ in you the hope of glory"
Eph 3:20,"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think,according to the power that worketh in us."
I personally have seen,been in the presence of and witnessed the power of God working through the Man or woman of God.
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 4:07 PM

"Jesus never partially healed anyone. All of His healings were total, instantaneous and permanent"(jfore)
Mathew 8:13,"And jesus said unto the centurion,Go thy way;and as thou hast believed,so be it done unto thee.And his servant was healed in the [selfsame hour]"
Luke 17:12-14,"And as he (Jesus) entered into a certain village,there met him ten men that were lepers,which stood afar off:And they lifted up their voices,and said Jesus,Master,have mercy on us.And when he saw them,he said unto them,Go show yourselves unto the priests.And it [came to pass],that,[as they went],they were cleansed."
Mark 6:4-6,"But jesus said unto them,A prophet is not without honor,but in his own country,and among his own kin,and in his own house.And he [could there do no mighty work],save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk,and healed them.And he marveled because of their unbelief.And he went round about the villages,teaching"
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 4:12 PM

Not all healings are instantaneous.
Faith is required to gain access to the Power of God.
sipedo read my blog view my photos
Jun 23, 2008 | 11:04 PM

one person once said "the Bible is not subject to interpretation, it means what it says and says what it means, anything else is adding to it"

but, the Bible says to "study, to show yourself approved"

it also says to "desire spiritual gifts"

I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit as mentioned briefly by Paul in I Cor. chapters 14 and 16, HOWEVER, I also believe that many church and individuals have perverted those scriptures as well
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 24, 2008 | 2:43 PM

I agree,Theres alway's some bad apples in the butch.But that's with almost everything."Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
Jfore may know somethings,but it seems that his intellect has become a stumbling block.
sipedo read my blog view my photos
Jun 26, 2008 | 1:58 PM

As a musician and worship leader ( a title given to me I did not ask for ) I have been approached by a minister to travel on the road and do revivals. The focus of the revivals would be a healing God. I am praying about it. I do know this, I will not be part of a ministry that is fake. Like Oral Roberts did so many years ago in telling people to get confirmation from their doctor before they quit taking their medication, I would have to do the same.
AUGUSTALLEN28 read my blog view my photos
Jun 26, 2008 | 6:43 PM

Wow sipdeo,What an opportunity.If you're cleared to go,and you see the first signs of it being fake and everything staged or hoaxed,pray before leaving also.God could be showing you something in the midst of the mess.Who knows you could help put an end to it and help save some lives from being plundered.
sipedo read my blog view my photos
Jun 26, 2008 | 11:18 PM

That's great advice August.
jfore read my blog
Jun 30, 2008 | 11:39 PM

August. You're confusing your terms. All healings were instantaneous in that they did not occur gradually over time. I didn't say that they were all immediate. You even forget the best example of the blind man who had to go and wash his eyes in the pool before he was healed. There are cases when the healing happened at a later time. But when they did occur they all happened instantaneously and completely and not gradually or partially.
Also, an organic illness can be medically documented since it is organic. It doesn't take a genius to know that a paralytic can't walk. Show me one case where a blind man could see, a paralytic could walk, or a child with cerebral palsy was made whole. Why do faith healers have problems dealing with things like that? Ever seen a missing limb regrow? The Toronto group says that God fills teeth. That's stupid. Why would he fill a damaged tooth when He could easily replace it? Show me one case where a documented case of cancer was cured by a faith healer. You see, if it isn't documented how do you really know it even existed at all. You can't find one single case of an organic disease being healed by a faith healer. Do you think that God limits himself to symptom relief? All you see are cures of mysterious aches and pains or hysterical relief of symptoms but the underlying condition is still there. Explain why modern faith healers never venture into hospital wards or disaster sites? Jesus and the Apostles healed wherever they were. If you study the New Testament you can see that the gift of healing through human agents ended long before the Apo
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sipedo

Hi, I'm a musician, I live in a house and I have 3 dogs. I believe in God and Jesus, and am the most imperfect person in the world. The hand I have been dealt is better than most, but not as good as others. I am blessed to be alive, and looking forward to the day when this body will be replaced.

Member Since: 10/4/2006


 

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