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by signal12 from The Squirrel Cave

Last Post 162 days, 15 hours Ago


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Prepare to sit back , grab a glass of sweet tea & get educated on the Flags of the Confederacy... The Confederate States of America used several flags during its existence from 1861 to 1865. Since the end of the American Civil War, personal and official use of Confederate flags, and of flags derived from these, has continued under some controversy. Currently the state flags of Mississippi and Georgia draw heavily upon Confederate flag designs, and those of Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, North Carolina, and Tennessee arguably incorporate certain elements from these designs. First national flag ("the Stars and Bars") First national flag of the Confederacy ("the Stars and Bars") First national flag of the Confederacy ("the Stars and Bars")

The first official flag of the Confederacy, called the "Stars and Bars," was flown from March 5, 1861 to May 26, 1863.

The very first national flag of the Confederacy was designed by Prussian artist Nicola Marschall in Marion, Alabama.[1] The Stars and Bars flag was adopted March 4, 1861 in Montgomery, Alabama and raised over the dome of that first Confederate Capitol. Marschall also designed the Confederate uniform.[2]

One of the first acts of the Provisional Confederate Congress was to create the Committee on the Flag and Seal, chaired by William Porcher Miles of South Carolina. The committee asked the public to submit thoughts and ideas on the topic and was, as historian John M. Coski puts it, "overwhelmed by requests not to abandon the 'old flag' of the United States." Miles had already designed a flag that would later become the Confederate battle flag, and he favored his flag over the "Stars and Bars" proposal. But given the popular support for a flag similar to the U.S. flag ("the Stars and Stripes"), the Stars and Bars design was approved by the committee.[3] When war broke out, the Stars and Bars caused confusion on the battlefield because of its similarity to the U.S. flag of the U.S. Army.[4]

Eventually, a total of thirteen stars would be shown on the flag. Its first public appearance was outside the Ben Johnson House in Bardstown, Kentucky. It was also used as a naval ensign.

Second national flag ("the Stainless Banner") Second national flag of the Confederacy ("the Stainless Banner") Second national flag of the Confederacy ("the Stainless Banner")

The second national flag of the Confederacy, called the "Stainless Banner," was put into service on May 1, 1863. It was designed to replace the first national flag. The first national flag had become increasingly criticized for its similarity to the Stars and Stripes, even though this had been the main argument for its initial adoption.[5] The flag is sometimes referred to as the "Stonewall Jackson Flag" because of its inaugural use covering Stonewall Jackson's coffin at his funeral.

Many designs were proposed, nearly all making use of the battle flag, which by 1863 had become well-known and popular. The new design was specified by the Confederate Congress to be a white field "with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red; thereupon a broad saltier [sic] of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned with mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States."[6]

The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field. The flag act of 1864 did not state what the white symbolized and advocates offered various interpretations. The most common interpretation is that the white field symbolized the purity of the Cause. The Confederate Congress debated whether the white field should have a blue stripe and whether it should be bordered in red. William Miles delivered a speech for the simple white design that was eventually approved. He argued that the battle flag must be used, but for a national flag it was necessary to emblazon it, but as simply as possible, with a plain white field.[7]

The flags actually made by the Richmond Clothing Depot used the 1.5:1 ratio adopted for the naval ensign rather than the official 2:1 ratio.[8]

Initial reaction to the second national flag was favorable, but over time it became criticized for being "too white". The Columbia Daily South Carolinian observed that it was essentially a battle flag upon a flag of truce and might send a mixed message. Military officers voiced complaints about the flag being too white, for various reasons, including the danger of being mistaken as a flag of truce, especially on naval ships, and that it was too easily soiled.[9]

1863 ensign 1863 ensign 1863 ensign

The second national flag was adapted as a naval ensign, using a shorter 3:2 ratio than the 2:1 ratio adopted by the Confederate Congress for the national flag. This particular ensign was the only one taken around the world (on board CSS Shenandoah) and was the last Confederate flag lowered in the Civil War (in Liverpool, England on 7 November 1865 on board CSS Shenandoah).

Third National Flag Third national flag of the Confederacy ("The Blood Stained Banner" Third national flag of the Confederacy ("The Blood Stained Banner"

The third national flag was adopted March 4, 1865, just before the fall of the Confederacy. The red vertical stripe was proposed by Major Arthur L. Rogers, who argued that the pure white field of the second national flag could be mistaken as a flag of truce. Rogers lobbied successfully to have his design introduced in the Confederate Senate. He defended his design as having "as little as possible of the Yankee blue", and described it as symbolizing the primary origins of the people of the South, with the cross of Britain and the red bar from the flag of France.[10]

The Flag Act of 1865 describes the flag in the following language: "The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That the flag of the Confederate States shall be as follows: The width two-thirds of its length, with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be in width three-fifths of the width of the flag, and so proportioned as to leave the length of the field on the side of the union twice the width of the field below it; to have the ground red and a broad blue saltire thereon, bordered with white and emblazoned with mullets or five pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States; the field to be white, except the outer half from the union to be a red bar extending the width of the flag."[11]

Other confederate flags Bonnie Blue FlagUnofficial Southern Flag Bonnie Blue Flag
Unofficial Southern Flag

In addition to the national flags, a wide variety of flags and banners were flown by Southerners during the War. Most famously, the "Bonnie Blue Flag" (which actually dated from the short-lived Republic of West Florida in 1810), was used as an early flag of Texas in 1836, and was used as an unofficial flag during the early months of 1861. In addition, many military units had their own regimental flags they would carry into battle. Other notable flags used are shown below.

The Battle Flag The Battle Flag of the Confederacy The Battle Flag of the Confederacy

Though often referred to as "The" battle flag of the Confederacy it was only one of more than 180 separate Confederate military battle flags.

The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag was usually square, of various sizes for the different branches of the service: 48 inches square for the infantry, 36 inches for the artillery, and 30 inches for the cavalry. It was used in battle beginning in December 1861 until the fall of the Confederacy. The blue color on the saltire in the battle flag was navy blue, as opposed to the much lighter blue of the Naval Jack.

The flag's stars represented the number of states in the Confederacy. The distance between the stars decreased as the number of states increased, reaching thirteen when the secessionist factions of Missouri and Kentucky joined in late 1861.[12]

At the First Battle of Bull Run, the similarity between the Stars and Bars and the Stars and Stripes caused confusion and military problems. Regiments carried flags to help commanders observe and assess battles in the warfare of the era. At a distance, the two national flags were hard to tell apart. In addition, Confederate regiments carried many other flags, which added to the possibility of confusion. After the battle, General Pierre Gustave Toutant de Beauregard wrote that he was "resolved then to have [our flag] changed if possible, or to adopt for my command a 'Battle flag', which would be Entirely different from any State or Federal flag."[13] He turned to his aide, who happened to be William Porcher Miles, the former chair of Committee on the Flag and Seal. Miles described his rejected national flag design to Beauregard. Miles also told the Committee on the Flag and Seal about the general's complaints and request for the national flag to be changed. The committee rejected this idea by a four to one vote, after which Beauregard proposed the idea of having two flags. He described the idea in a letter to his commander General Joseph E. Johnston: "I wrote to [Miles] that we should have two flags — a peace or parade flag, and a war flag to be used only on the field of battle — but congress having adjourned no action will be taken on the matter — How would it do us to address the War Dept. on the subject of Regimental or badge flags made of red with two blue bars crossing each other diagonally on which shall be introduced the stars, ... We would then on the field of battle know our friends from our Enemies."[14]

South Carolina Sovreignty/Secession Flag South Carolina Sovreignty/Secession Flag

The flag that Miles had favored when he was chair of the Committee on the Flag and Seal eventually became the battle flag and, ultimately, the most popular flag of the Confederacy. According to historian John Coski, Miles' design was inspired by one of the many "secessionist flags" flown at the South Carolina secession convention of December, 1860. That flag was a blue St George's Cross (an upright or Latin cross) on a red field, with 15 white stars on the cross, representing the slave states, and, on the red field, palmetto and crescent symbols. Miles received a variety of feedback on this design, including a critique from Charles Moise, a self-described "Southerner of Jewish persuasion". Moise liked the design, but asked that "the symbol of a particular religion not be made the symbol of the nation." Taking this into account, Miles changed his flag, removing the palmetto and crescent, and substituting a heraldic saltire ("X") for the upright one. The number of stars was changed several times as well. He described these changes and his reasons for making them in early 1861. The diagonal cross was preferable, he wrote, because "it avoided the religious objection about the cross (from the Jews and many Protestant sects), because it did not stand out so conspicuously as if the cross had been placed upright thus." He also argued that the diagonal cross was "more Heraldric [sic] than Ecclesiastical, it being the 'saltire' of Heraldry, and significant of strength and progress."[15]

Although Miles described his flag as a heraldic saltire, it had been thought to be erroneously described since the latter part of the 19th century as a cross, specifically a Saint Andrew's Cross. Supposedly this folk legend sprang from the memoirs of an aging Confederate officer published in 1893. However, further reasearch has indicated that this was no folk legend. In 1863, during the session in which the Confederate Congress was voting on the 2nd National Flag, Willaim G. Swan of Tennessee's second congressional district wished to substitute the following language:

"That the flag of the Confederate States shall be as follows:
A red field with a Saint Andrew's cross of blue edged with white and emblazoned with stars."

Swan, who before the secession had been mayor of Knoxville and attorney general of Tennessee, had adapted his proposal from the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, but it was in fact identical to the flag proposed by William Porcher Miles in March 1861. But in the intervening years, the battle flag had been sanctified by the blood of Southern soldiers in the struggle for independence. Swan wished to adopt it for use by the nation now as a tribute to the valor of the Confederate fighting man.

Further references to the link between the battle flag and the St. Andrew's Cross are made by Confederate soldiers during the war.

According to Coski, the Saint Andrew's Cross had no special place in Southern iconography at the time, and if Miles had not been eager to conciliate the Southern Jews his flag would have used the traditional Latin, Saint George's Cross. A colonel named James B. Walton submitted a battle flag design essentially identical to Miles' except with an upright Saint George's cross, but Beauregard chose the diagonal cross design.[16]


Specifically, the St. Andrew's Cross is a white saltire on a blue field, as in the national flag of Scotland. The St. Patrick's Cross, as in the state flag of Alabama, is a red saltire on a white field. The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag has a blue saltire on a red field and is, therefore, neither the St. Andrew's nor the St. Patrick's Cross but a saltire as in the proposed but unadopted Second National flag.

Miles' flag, and all the flag designs up to that point, were rectangular ("oblong") in shape. General Johnston suggested making it square instead. Johnston also specified the various sizes to be used by different types of military units. Beauregard agreed to this and soon prototypes were made by Hetty Cary and her sister and cousin. On November 28, 1861, the Army of Northern Virginia (which was then called the Army of the Potomac) assembled and formally received the first set of new battle flags. Beauregard gave a speech encouraging the soldiers to treat this new flag with honor and that it must never be surrendered. Many soldiers wrote home about the ceremony and the impression the flag had upon them, the "fighting colors" boosting morale after the confusion of the first Battle of Bull Run. From that point on, the battle flag only grew in its identification with the Confederacy and the South in general.[17]

The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag assumed a prominent place post-war when it was adopted as the copyrighted emblem of the United Confederate Veterans. Its continued use by the UCV and the later Sons of Confederate Veterans led to the assumption that it was, as it has been termed, "the soldier's flag" or "the Confederate battle flag".

The flag is also properly known as the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was sometimes called "Beauregard's flag" or "the Virginia battle flag".

The Naval Jacks The First Confederate Navy Jack, 1861-1863 The First Confederate Navy Jack, 1861-1863

The First Confederate Navy Jack consisted of a circle of seven 5-pointed white stars on a field of light blue.

The Second Confederate Navy Jack, 1863-1865 The Second Confederate Navy Jack, 1863-1865

The Second Confederate Navy Jack is a rectangular precursor of the Battle Flag, usually about 5×3 feet. The blue color in the saltire (the diagonal cross) is much lighter than in the Battle Flag, and it was flown only on Confederate ships from 1863 to 1865.

Navy Jack of the CSA Navy Jack of the CSA

The design was originally made by South Carolina Congressman William Porcher Miles with the intent to be the first national flag, but it was rejected by the Confederate government. Some critics supposedly scoffed at the design, saying it looked too much like crossed suspenders. While the square battle flag was widely used, the rectangular upside down and, the oblong version was also used by some army units, including the Army of Tennessee as their battle flag from 1864-1865. After General Joseph Johnston took command of the Army of Tennessee from Braxton Bragg, he ordered its army-wide implementation to improve morale and avoid confusion.

 After the War

For some time during the Reconstruction period, public display of any of the Confederate flags was forbidden and treated as contraband in the states occupied by Federal troops. It was also illegal to wear Confederate uniforms or military insignia. On January 25, 1867, federal troops in Rome, Georgia arrested four former Confederate soldiers for participating in a "tableau depicting an officer's funeral", and briefly wearing Confederate uniforms and draping a Confederate battle flag over a casket. The men were imprisoned for three weeks.[18]

 The Confederate Flag The "Confederate Flag", a 20th century combination of the Battle Flag's colors with the Second Navy Jack's design. Actual historical flags of the CSA have become more obscure. The "Confederate Flag", a 20th century combination of the Battle Flag's colors with the Second Navy Jack's design. Actual historical flags of the CSA have become more obscure.

What is now often called "The Confederate Flag" or "The Confederate Battle Flag" (actually a combination of the Battle Flag's colors with the Second Navy Jack's design), despite its never having historically represented the CSA as a nation, has become a widely recognized symbol of the South. It is also called the "rebel" or "Dixie" flag, and is often incorrectly referred to as the "Stars and Bars" (the actual "Stars and Bars" is the First National Flag, which used an entirely different design).

In the early- to mid-20th century the Confederate flag enjoyed renewed popularity. During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a soldier from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 5th Marine Regiment). It was visible for miles and was taken down after three days on the orders of General Simon B. Buckner, Jr. (son of Confederate General Simon Buckner), who stated that it was inappropriate as "Americans from all over are involved in this battle". It was replaced with the flag of the United States.[19]

The use of the flag by soldiers came under investigation after some African-American soldiers filed complaints. By the end of World War II, the use of the Confederate flag in the military was rare.[20] However, the Confederate flag continues to be flown in an unofficial manner by many soldiers. It was seen many times in Korea, Vietnam, and in the Middle East.

Controversy

Displaying the flag

The display of the Confederate flag remains a highly controversial and emotional topic, generally because of disagreement over the nature of its symbolism. Opponents of the Confederate flag see it as an overt symbol of racism, both for the history of racial slavery in the United States, and the establishment of Jim Crow laws by Southern states following the end of Reconstruction in late 1870s, enforcing racial segregation within state borders for nearly a century until the Civil Rights Movement. Others view the flag as a symbol of rebellion against the federal government of the United States. Many groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist, separatist, and the Ku Klux Klan,[21] while others see it as an historical symbol representing pride in the Southern United States or a past era of southern sovereignty.[22]

As a result of these varying perceptions, there have been a number of political controversies surrounding the use of the Confederate flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events, at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and native Southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the South's resistance to Northern political dominance; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement, when fighting against desegregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance.

Symbols of the Confederacy remain a contentious issue across the United States and have been debated vigorously in many Southern state legislatures over their civic placement since the 1990s.

Display at the South Carolina capitol The South Carolina State House, site of the 2000 controversy. The South Carolina State House, site of the 2000 controversy.

On April 12, 2000, the South Carolina State Senate passed a bill to remove the Confederate flag from the top of the State House dome by a majority vote of 36 to 7. Originally placed there in 1962,[23] "the new bill specified that a more traditional version of the battle flag would be flown in front of the Capitol next to a monument honoring fallen Confederate soldiers." The bill also passed the state's House of Representatives, but not without some difficulty. On May 18, 2000, after the bill was modified to ensure that the height of the flag's new pole would be 30 feet (9 m), it was passed by a majority of 66 to 43. Governor Jim Hodges signed the bill into law five days later after it passed the state Senate. On July 1, 2000 the flag was removed from atop the State House and placed on a monument on the front lawn of the capitol. Current state law prohibits the flag's removal from the State House grounds without additional legislation.

In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of African-Americans polled favored removing the flag from the South Carolina State House altogether.[24] The NAACP and other civil rights groups have attacked the flag's continued presence at the state capitol. The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued display of the battle flag on its State House grounds, despite an initial agreement to call off the boycott after it was removed from the State House dome.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association has prevented South Carolina from hosting any championship sporting events in which the sites are determined in advance.[25] On April 14, 2007, Steve Spurrier, coach of the University of South Carolina football team, made an acceptance speech for a community service award in which he referred to the flag on the State House grounds as "that damn flag".[26]

Use in State Flags

Alabama Flag of Alabama. Flag of Alabama. Main article: Flag of Alabama

It is commonly believed that the crimson saltire of the Flag of Alabama was designed to resemble the blue saltire of the Confederate Battle Flag. The Battle Flag was square-shaped, and Alabama's flag is sometimes shown as a square. The legislation that created the state flag did not specify if the flag was going to be square or rectangular.[27] The authors of a 1917 article in National Geographic expressed their opinion that because the Alabama flag was based on the Battle Flag, it should be square.[28] In 1987, the office of Alabama Attorney General Don Siegelman issued an opinion in which the Battle Flag derivation is repeated, but concluded that the proper shape is rectangular, as it had been depicted numerous times in official publications and reproductions.[29]

However, the saltire design of the Alabama state flag also bears resemblance to several other flags. It is identical to the flag of Saint Patrick, incorporated into the Union Flag of the United Kingdom to represent the union of the Kingdom of Great Britain with the Kingdom of Ireland. This has led to other origins being put forth as possibilities.

Some hold that it owes its origin as a simplification of the Cross of Burgundy Flag used by the Spanish in the New Spain and as the basis of military flags. One example that was used in the future Alabama was that of the Regimiento de Infanteria de Luisiana which took part in the Battle of Mobile as part of the Gulf Coast campaign of the American Revolution. [30]

Another slim possibility is in the flag of Co. F 7th Alabama Cavalry. The regiment was the only Alabama regiment in Rucker's Brigade commanded by Col. Edmund Rucker of Tennessee, later Alabama, who became a prominent Montgomery businessman after the war. The flag of the brigade used a white background with a red saltire which did not always extend to the corners and charged with dark colored stars upon the saltire. The flag of Co. F, 7th Alabama Cavalry is currently held by the Alabama Department of Archives and History as part of its Alabama Civil War Period Flag Collection. [31] But, the flag carried by Co. F 7th Alabama was not an Alabama Flag, it was the flag made for Rucker's Brigade a month before the 7th joined his brigade; the 7th was color party only after September 24, 1864. A bunting flag that exists, in the white and red configuration with 13 blue stars, is not believed to be Alabama associated, but tied to Rucker's Brigade also.

 Florida Flag of Florida. Flag of Florida. Main article: Flag of Florida

Some have claimed that the cross is intended to recall the blue saltire of the Confederate Battle Flag. However, this view is not universal and there is no significant opposition to the current design within the state (as there has been in Georgia and Mississippi over their Confederate-style flags). Historically, the first Spanish flag over Florida was a red saltire ragulée (knotted) with a white background (the Burgundian Saltire). The flag of Alabama is a plain red saltire, as is Saint Patrick's Flag, which is incorporated into the Union Flag of the United Kingdom.

Georgia Main article: Flag of Georgia (U.S. state)

In 1956, the State Flag of Georgia was redesigned to incorporate the Confederate Battle Flag. Following protests over this aspect of the design in the 1990s by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and other groups, efforts began in the Georgia General Assembly to remove the Battle Flag from the state flag's design. These efforts succeeded in January 2001 when Georgia Governor Roy Barnes pushed through a design that, though continuing to depict the Battle Flag, greatly reduced its prominence. This move deeply angered a large segment of Georgia’s electorate, contributing to Barnes' defeat in the subsequent gubernatorial election in November 2002.

The following year, amidst demands for the return of the 1956 design (“Battle Flag” version) and opposing demands for the continued use of the new “Barnes’” design, the Georgia General Assembly redesigned the flag yet again, adopting a "compromise" design based largely on the First National Flag of the Confederacy (known as the "Stars and Bars").

Recent flags of Georgia. Recent flags of Georgia.

Mississippi Flag of Mississippi. Flag of Mississippi. Main article: Flag of Mississippi

The Confederate Battle Flag became a part of the Flag of Mississippi in 1894. In 1906, the flag statutes were omitted by error from the new legal code of the state, leaving Mississippi without an official flag. The omission was not discovered until 1993, when a lawsuit filed by the NAACP regarding the flag was being reviewed by the Mississippi Supreme Court. In 2000, Governor Ronnie Musgrove issued an executive order making the flag official. After continued controversy, the decision was turned over to citizens of the state, who, on April 17, 2001, voted 2:1 to keep the Confederate Battle Flag emblem on the state flag.[32]

North Carolina Flag of North Carolina. Flag of North Carolina. Main article: Flag of North Carolina

The state legislature adopted this flag in March, 1885, to replace the original state flag that had been adopted on June 22, 1861, immediately following the state's secession from the Union on May 20, 1861. The red field of the old flag was replaced by blue in memory of the Bonnie Blue Flag which was used as a symbol of secession during the war. The overall stripe pattern is also reminiscent of the "Stars and Bars" flag.

 Use on vehicular license plates Louisiana Sons of Confederate Veterans license plate with Confederate flag logo displayed. Louisiana Sons of Confederate Veterans license plate with Confederate flag logo displayed.

In Georgia, North Carolina, Alabama, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Louisiana vehicle owners can request a license plate from the state featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans logo, which incorporates the square Confederate Battle Flag. Florida currently has a bill asking for the Sons of the Confederate Veterans logo [33]

In 1998, a North Carolina appellate court upheld the issuance of such license plates in the case SONS OF CONFEDERATE v. DMV, noting: "We are aware of the sensitivity of many of our citizens to the display of the Confederate flag. Whether the display of the Confederate flag on state-issued license plates represents sound public policy is not an issue presented to this Court in this case. That is an issue for our General Assembly."[34] Presently, efforts are also being made in Florida to have an SCV flag featuring the Confederate banner issued by the state. The plate has yet to be made available.

Comments?

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Hawkeye read my blog
Jun 2, 2008 | 7:37 PM

What?? Whadidya say??

LMAO..GOOD one Sig...

DeborahLakeHelen read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 8:28 PM

You are THE MAN, Signal! Your research is always so thorough! Great post!

davidpatrick344 read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 8:35 PM

obammas not going to like the flag being up but i do

sensiblejoe read my blog
Jun 2, 2008 | 8:35 PM

Good, thorough research. No matter how people feel about the flags of the CSA, I get so tired of hearing them refer to the Battle Flag as the Stars and Bars, when the difference is so obvious. If people are going to be pro or con about something, they might as well be accurate and knowledgeable about it.

signal12 read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 9:24 PM

After reading the other flag post, & reading the replies. I figured this should be posted as a way to educate anyone who didn't know the whole story...

No pun intended, But I wanted to Thank "mscsailor", for inadvertantly giving me the idea.. :o)

Truthguys read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 10:23 PM

Didnt the Confederates get their Rear end kicked in the Civil War that took 50 years to recover the south? Last I checked, you dont lose the WAR and keep the toys. Lose the WAR, LOSE THE Flag.

You dont see Nazi flags or Imperial Japan flags flying.

MOUNT_DORA_FAN read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 11:15 PM

You need to get out more Truthguys...I'm not Southern but the Southern Pride is still rampent among real Southern Folks. Sure they were defeated in numbers but check out the battlefields from Virginia to Texas to Florida and they didn't get their rears kicked. We the North won a very hard fought war that Southerners can hold their heads high for having the guts and willingness to put their lives on the line for their deep felt beliefs. The Confederate Flag to me has only served to remine me what true Warriors we defeated. Kicked Butts is really a degrading statement to use when refering to a war that tore families apart put brother against brother. No Sir you're way off the mark Truthguys......and that's the truth.

Georgies-Girl read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 11:20 PM

Very thorough post, Sig. You do a good job educating people with your posts. Keep it up. I never realized (of course I am originally from "Up North") there were so many flags involved. My husband was born north, but his father was from Fl. I am sure his father knew this, but he may not have passed it on to his kids. He was born in Cocoa in 1893. He died in 1965. Because his wife was from Penna., he never moved back here...just became a "snow bird".

MOUNT_DORA_FAN read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 11:21 PM

Fly your Flag with pride. Remember always those who served under it. Their great valore,
and pride should be remembered by all who see and understand that it doesn't repersent hate it shows PRIDE IN ONE HISTORY.

rottweiler7575 read my blog view my photos
Jun 2, 2008 | 11:24 PM

Great Blog Signal 12, I learned a couple of things, Thanks

Cromagnonwoman read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 6:50 AM

Signal 12 great post. Right on point.
MOUNT_DORA_FAN- Spot on sir!!!!

mscsailor read my blog
Jun 3, 2008 | 8:40 AM

It warms my heart to note that some of the Fox35 community have been somewhat enlightened here. Like I said in the other thread, it is tiring to have to continually lecture people on the history of the flags of my forebears. Two of my great grandfathers fought for the Confederacy- and I will not be shamed because of that.

But strangely, it is often those who so proudly display the battle flag that know the least about its role in history.

LLRucker read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 9:50 AM

It truly irks me that some folks have such a time with the Flag. To them I say, wake up people. You have to have enough sense to know that doing completely away with the Flag will never negate slavery. It is a fact, and one that we can not hide and we dare not forget.
The Flag may symbolize hatred and racism to some, but to those of us of Southern heritage, it is a symbol of pride. It was not meant to insult or debase anyone but to instill pride in the South. It was also a means to distinguish the CSA from the Republic.
My maternal great-great grandfather was a Confederate soldier , my paternal counterpart was a Yankee, and I am damn proud of both. I have no shame in my Southern heritage, or my Yankee heritage, and I honor the Confederate flag as much as I honor the Stars and Stripes.

Nightmare read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 12:55 PM

...As I've said before, if you allow the Confederate flag to fly to show southern pride, you can't complain if the black pride flag, Puerto Rico flag or any other country flag flies. It's only fair.

I'm a southern girl, but I'm also black, so I'll never fly the flag that represented the oppression of my people during the Civil War.

mscsailor read my blog
Jun 3, 2008 | 1:20 PM

Let's see. The Stars and Bars flew over the CSA, Puerto Rico has it's own flag, as does Cuba, Haiti, and Uzbekistan, but which country flies the "black pride" flag? Just curious.

LLRucker read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 3:28 PM

AS you are entitled to your ideals, so am I. I have a LONGGGGG line of Southern ancestors, and to a one, none of them owned a single black person, none were involved in the oppression and none actively participated in the mistreatment of the slaves. As a Southern white, I reserve my right to be proud of my heritage, as much as any black descendant of any slave.

BrendaG read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 6:35 PM

Excellent post Signal! I am still waiting for that plate! Think we will ever get it? :-\

davidpatrick344 read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 8:11 PM

think ill name my car general lee paint it clemson orange withe the stares and bars on top now wheres dasy

Sageman read my blog
Jun 3, 2008 | 10:04 PM

I think that symbol of the flag is what people hate and the fervor that people hold on to that. It's a symbol of a how the south held on to their beliefs even though they lost the war. One where blacks were hung, burned and whipped under the waving of the confederate flag.

Further more you can be proud of your heritage with out endorsing a emblem used for over a 100 years as instrument of hate and fear.

That would be like the German's picking the swaztika to be the emblem of choice for their flag. They didn't because they no longer embraced the hatred it stood for.

The flag symbolizes what the confederates were for, the separation from the north and the continuation of slavery and oppression in the south.

How any sane person can embrace this flag as a symbol of their culture if they themselves don't endorse the segregation and violence it flew over, is beyond me.

Native_Floridian read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 10:48 PM

And why IS IT ONLY THIS FLAG being picked on? How come the CROSS or CRUCIFIX IS NOT even REMOTELY CONSIDERED when the KKK BURNED MANY A BLACK AND WHITE PERSON, be it MAN, WOMAN or EVEN A CHILD on them right in their own FRONT YARDS!

Yet we "worship" this symbol that in the VERY CONTEXT of the REBEL or CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAG that IS IN THIS VERY SAME VEIN!!!

So why aren't these same idiots that know so much calling to have every cross taken off every church, every home that has one ordorning it, wether attached directly to the structure or planted in the yard?

Did not the KKK use these too? Damn straight they did, but you never hear the BAD SIDE of that symbol that should also be looked at with the same disdain by the VERY PEOPLE that ARE UPSET and DISLIKE the so-called "Confederate Flags".

So you tell me, what is wrong with THIS picture? Why complain about one, and not the other that played just as big, IF NOT BIGGER (burning cross WITH PEOPLE on i, NOT just BLACKS, but INCLUDING WHITES!) than the Confederate flag?

These people seem to be EXTREMELY CONFUSED to me!

And yes, I DO support ANYONE that wants to fly the Confederate Flag as well as worship the cross, despite how their meanings have been contorted, twisted and MISUSED by ANY SPECIFIC GROUP of folks, wether they are BLACK, WHITE, RED or EVEN GREEN in color!!!

People that see this flag as hate have NOT even bothered to educate themselves by READING Signal12's excellent info above on it(them)! READ IT! yes, it IS LONG, but then you'll be EDUCATED and NOT IGNORANT about it before mak

Native_Floridian read my blog view my photos
Jun 3, 2008 | 10:51 PM

CONTINUED (Cut off)
before making incorrect commentary on it (them)!

FloridaDiamondGirl51 read my blog
Jun 3, 2008 | 10:55 PM

LEAVE THE FLAG! It looks "AWESOME!"
Makes a Floridian proud!

Sageman read my blog
Jun 3, 2008 | 11:21 PM

The people who truly hold pride in what their families stood up for during the civil war need a reality check. They were supporting, mainly, an economy driven by slavery. Not just slavery but the most inhumane treatment of humans that was seen up till the Nazi's came into power. Seriously, if you want to hold pride in a symbol that was used to promote battle for that cause, go ahead. After all it's a free country but please don't try to pretty it up by ignoring what it has become synonymous with, hatred and racism.

For us to compare the flag with tearing down crosses because some nut jobs decided to burn them in a sacrilegious display of hatred is asinine and ludicrous. It would be like comparing marching to the swastika. Another symbol that holds a lot of pride with certain Americans who too like to remember the civil war and how the south lost.

I wonder why so many southerns hold on to memories of a war that was based on the most basest of values, money, greed and hate. That the men were so against the liberation of black slaves that they would bear arms to make sure none would go free. That sounds like something I would find a fool and hate monger holding pride in not an American, southern or otherwise. So feel free to wave your flag, just don't sugar coat the Civil War or what the Confederacy stood for.

Dick_Steel
Jun 3, 2008 | 11:36 PM

Yes, the North won, if dropping 300,000 of your adversaries getting your butt kicked, so be it.

I grew up in the South, and have lived in the North, I like the South better.

As a child (about 1966), I saw the rebel flag on a car and asked the lady what it meant. She answered that it means "I love the South." This is how I grew up thinking of it.

A symbol means different things to different people. To some, burning our flag is okay, but raising this one is not. I would imagine it is covered in their 1st ammendment rights.
The symbol that became known as a "swastika", meant "good luck" prior to being used by the Nazis. Today, anyone wearing it would be frowned upon, but prior to the 1930's it meant something different.

In Virginia, I was threatened with deadly violence by a Jamaican man for wearing a belt buckle with this flag on it. When he arrived at the realization that it involved more effort than he was willing to put into it, he called off his attack. The buckle was a gift from a good friend.

People have a right to like and dislike whatever they so choose. Some things in life you won't like. No one ever guaranteed us the right not to be offended, but if you are, it is also your right.

To those who hoisted the flag to exercise their freedom of speech to express themselves, it is your right, as I see it.
To those of you who don't care for it, it is also your right as I see it.

Learn to take the high road. With people starving and dying on the goblal scheme of things, this really is a small issue, isn't it?

God Bless America!

mscsailor read my blog
Jun 4, 2008 | 6:38 AM

Sageman says - " I wonder why so many southerns hold on to memories of a war that was based on the most basest of values, money, greed and hate."

Then I must presume you do not respect the American Flag, as it represents the same values when applied to our war against Native Americans.

LLRucker read my blog view my photos
Jun 4, 2008 | 9:33 AM

Sage, you and others seem to forget that the North profited from that 'slavery driven economy' as much as the South. Or am I mistaken in my understanding that the Yankees wore clothes made of cotton and didn't stumble around in the nude?
Face it, the North lived a life fraught with double standards. They hated the idea of slavery, but were loath to give up the niceties that very institution provided for them as much as for the South.
And unless I'm mistaken, (and god knows I have been on many occasions) the Yankees weren't so opposed to slavery that they refused to allow the slave traders to dock in NY.Or look the other way when those Slave traders were Yankees making huge sums of money off their human cargoes.
But, of course the old double standard applies.

LLRucker read my blog view my photos
Jun 4, 2008 | 9:41 AM

And Truthguy, the South lost for two reasons and only two, we lacked any foundries or factories to produce ammo and cannons and the North successfully cut off supply lines to the South.Yankees went into that war under the mistaken belief that we were ignorant crackers that could be defeated in a matter of weeks. They were only party right. A great many of our soldiers were crackers, but our officers were educated men that laid out successful battle plans.
When you credit the South with barbarism, you need to lump the Yankees in with them. At least Confederate soldiers did not rape, burn and pillage their way through the Yankee towns they won, unlike the Yankees who took great delight and pride in raping our women and burning their homes down around them. Big men those Yankee soldiers.
If you want to make comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis, Grant and the Yankees fit that bill quite nicely.

Hawkeye read my blog
Jun 4, 2008 | 2:03 PM

You are NOT only NOT mistaken LL but you have hit on ANOTHER Major reason for the War..

In ACTUAL fact..The North was profiteering from Slavery EVEN more so then the South was..
It was NORTHERN Industries,, the VERY ones YOU cited,, that RECIEVED the raw Cotten and refined it into products SOLD ALL over Europe as WELL as in the U.S.

THIS was a MAJOR point of Contention during the years leading up to the war..

And ANOTHER point,, the War would NOT have lasted NEARLY as long as it did had it NOT been for the overly cautious nature of the Northern Commanding General,, McClellan..
Had HE been NEARLY as good at Fighting as he WAS at organizing the war would have ended within the FIRST two years..

The North had advantages in Manufacturing,, Transportation,, Manpower and Supplies..

They SIMPLY lacked a WAR footing..

Hawkeye read my blog
Jun 4, 2008 | 2:07 PM

BTW..Like ANY ARMY throughout history you'll find that the "Cream of the crop" were in the Officer Corps while the poor dumb bastards were the foot soldiers..FEW who wore NO Officer Rank and Insignia EVER owned Slaves..

Meb452m read my blog
Jun 4, 2008 | 10:35 PM

Great post signal. Charlie Daniels has a song called : "The South's Gonna Do It Again !" I'm suprised that people are picketing and burning old records and CD's. Some great comments on this post as well.

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